Discussion about an unified creative and constructive economy. (Aug 27/2019) (English subtitles)


Olga Pogorelko, private business owner in real-estate:
Good afternoon, dear friends! Final pages of the book “AllatRa” give us an opportunity to remember what a creative and constructive society should be like: how to live like a human being;
how to live happily; how to live in friendship;
how to live in an altruistic society. The message of AllatRa has inspired people all over the world so much that people have begun to implement the principles of a creative and constructive society, everyone in the city where they live, in the place where they are. An example of this are two recent events. On May 11, 2019, the event “SOCIETY. THE LAST CHANCE” took place in Atlanta, USA. Thousands of people gathered together to discuss what can be changed so that the society becomes creative and constructive and we live happily. And as a consequence of this wonderful event, the next large-scale event took place on June 22, 2019 – the conference “FOR CREATIVE SOCIETY!” Politicians and diplomats met there to express what steps should be taken to transform the society into a creative and constructive one, and what, we, people, can do today in order to make this society a reality for everyone. And I am glad to welcome everyone today, because our conversation will really be a discussion. And I suggest that we compare different facts from life, which currently exist in the society, and what society we actually want to have and how we see it. And most importantly, what we can do right now. After all, we know that it is already realistic, it is easy and it is happening right now. Igor Naumets, PhD in Economics, Honored Builder of Ukraine, entrepreneur in the mining industry: In recent programmes with participation of Igor Mikhailovich Danilov “THE PRECEDENT” and “THE CHANCE ON THE VERGE”, basic principles of building a creative and constructive society were voiced. We’ve gathered here to discuss simply and openly what society should be like because each of us knows in his heart what kind of society he would like to live in. Of course, this society is built on Love, good neighborly relations, decency and happiness. So, I think we can talk about this,
what we need to do now and what kind of society we currently live in, to understand where we are. Let’s discuss the model of building a creative and constructive society in the form of such a simple conversation. Olga Pogorelko: In other words, you are suggesting a discussion today, right? And in this discussion we will use the principles of “GAME OF PROFESSIONALS”, when each participant of our conversation freely expresses his point of view without harm to his reputation. Igor Naumets: Let’s introduce our participants. Our guests today are: Natalia Zinovchuk, Ph.D. in economics, Professor. Natalia Zinovchuk – Ph.D. in economics, Professor, Leading Researcher, The Institute of Agroecology and Natural Resources:
Greetings! Igor Naumets: Oksana Kushch, marketing specialist. Oksana Kushch, marketing specialist: Good afternoon. Igor Naumets: Olga Pogorelko, private business owner. Olga Pogorelko: Good afternoon. Igor: And Tatiana Peuvrel – entrepreneur. Tatiana Peuvrel: Greetings! Olga Pogorelko: Igor Naumets, Candidate of Economic Sciences and Honored Builder of Ukraine. Igor Naumets: Hello. Olga Pogorelko: Bogdan Novytskyi,
investment business owner. Bogdan Novytskyi: Hello. Olga Pogorelko: And Myroslav Gret, art director. Myroslav Gret, art director,
owner of a branding agency: Hello. Olga Pogorelko: Friends, I think now it will be most relevant to discuss what is going on in the world today? And to look at it from all perspectives: how does the consumer format really kill a human, kills what’s most important in him – human life?
When did this begin? What consequences do we see?
This world is rolling into the abyss. Let’s define the points that we completely
disagree with today and which we can currently change for the better. Natalia Zinovchuk: Right, we should probably agree that the society in which we live now is a society of absurdity, because over the past 6,000 years wars have been constantly going on. There is a division of people into rich and poor. There are super-rich people and those
who are starving to death. According to the World Bank, 1 out of 6 people live on one dollar or less a day. At the same time, 85 of the richest people have the same amount of money as all poor people on the planet combined. We live in the 21st century,
but 1 billion people cannot read, 30,000 children die of hunger and disease every day. Well, can we really say that we live in a civilized society? Probably not. Igor Naumets: Well, yes. It is very interesting that over the last 10 years, since the last crisis, the number of billionaires on Earth has increased. At the same time, the gap between the rich and the poor has widened. Natalia Zinovchuk: On the other hand, we have
billions of people who live below the poverty line, on the verge of survival. Can we say that this society is fair, that it is beautiful and has a future? Obviously, not. It is necessary to change the format of this society. Oksana Kushch: Yes, you know, I was interested in the question of how much money is spent on advertising around the world today. This number is about 250 billion dollars annually. If we take the top ten largest advertisers’ campaigns, their total annual expenditure is
almost 18 billion dollars a year. This list includes the Coca Cola Company. It spends 23% of its income on advertising, which amounts to 3,3 billion dollars per year on average. While Apple spends a billion dollars
on advertising every year. And I was also very impressed by the information I found about the Amazon Company, which is readily available to the public. Some time ago, the head of this company said that “advertising is the price you pay if your product is not in any way remarkable.” This company specializes in e-commerce and artificial intelligence. Later, the head of the company changed his mind about not spending money on advertising. And in 2018, this company spent almost
2 billion dollars on advertising. Igor Naumets: In other words, they actually form such a model of behaviour, direct our attention so that we buy
more and more goods. When you get down to it, people buy goods, in general, not because they really need them, but to show off. When someone owns something more beautiful, brighter and more fashionable, you get a desire to own the same thing too, because it’s seemingly in short supply. Only it’s very expensive to get it. That’s why they spend a huge amount of money on this advertising. Myroslav Gret: Do you know that half of the food products are thrown away and remain unneeded? Things that we produce currently are
simply thrown away. Time and attention. And these products are constantly becoming more expensive. That is, every seventh person in the world
suffers from malnutrition, chronic malnutrition, that is, chronic hunger. While we, in fact, produce all the food,
we just throw half of it out. That is, we are throwing in the dumpster as much as 2 billion tons of food. Tatiana Peuvrel: There was a very big scandal in France, when the activists filmed the fact that food was destroyed with acid in order for people not to take this food, which was left in the packages. Myroslav Gret: The official UN statistics is that 2 billion tons of food are thrown in the trash. 7 million tons of clothing are thrown away every year, and only 12% is recycled. Tatiana Peuvrel: Yeah.
There was a scandal about this in France, too. What big brands, the Hermes style, for example, do with the clothes they got. They don’t offer discounts because they are kind of maintaining the brand. They just destroy it. Igor Naumets: It’s easier to destroy. Yes Tatiana Peuvrel: They destroy it. There are special machines in which you can throw things out. And it’s all cut right out. Do you have any idea how much
energy and attention is there, and after all, money, only to support this myth of exclusiveness. Myroslav Gret: Brand, in quotation marks. Tatiana Peuvrel: We can call it brand in quotation marks. Igor Naumets: Brands that are limited in number, so that people would be eager to own it, spend their time, desire and attention. Of course. Natalia Zinovchuk: Some people aspire for constant enrichment and at the same time, there are people who are constantly hungry, they just have nothing to eat. Let’s, for instance, take retirees. Especially in developing countries, and even in developed ones, not everything is so good with retirees. I think that each of us can give
examples of how they live. How unhappy these people are now. After all, they live in constant fear: what will they eat tomorrow? How will they pay for their utilities?
Where will they get money for medicines? They experience constant stress and fear. Bogdan Novytskyi: Let’s turn our attention to such a very important issue as war. Economic wars are constantly going on in the world. As a consequence there are real wars. And such a simple example: the war in Iraq. 800 billion dollars have been spent, on the one hand. On the other hand, let’s see. The United Nations spends 2 billion dollars on the fight against hunger. We have paid 400 times more money, and we ourselves have chipped in in order to kill each other. We are also doing it ourselves. We are pretending to be helping someone. This is pretending. Is this normal? Igor Naumets: Just watch TV
where this war is actually advertised. Meaning, every day on the news we see information about some violence, wars, natural disasters and something negative. Well, I’ve got an impression
that not only the world has gone crazy, but they are constantly trying to keep us in fear. Mass media constantly supports information where the image of enemy from different countries is formed, that we need to somehow confront someone, to fight someone and to spend all the time on some constant fighting. Also add corruption, constant taxes, constantly increasing taxes, and inflation. Whatever you buy, whatever funds you try to save, everything is losing value anyway. You have to work harder and harder to provide for yourself and your children. Myroslav Gret: I would like to add that what we see now is that in different social classes society is indifferent, I would say, to its own problems. And they do not want to see the obvious things. If we talk about my example, my sphere of activity, everyone who works in advertising is responsible for the fact that society now has such consumer needs. I would put it this way. And that’s what I do when I’m on the set. The main thing any director wants is to have a model or a person who would assume an image and convey this image to consumers. Meaning, there is a constant pressure on someone to desire something. There is imposition. And it just makes us indifferent to other problems. Our heads are always filled with some kind of images, that we need this or that. And if we look at this on a global scale, well, really: what does a person need for life? For normal life. Tatiana Peuvrel: I absolutely agree with you. But on the other hand, if you talk to every person in a humane way, everyone wants the same life. Just a simple life, a peaceful one. Everybody says, “When will we start living a quiet, peaceful life? Well, without these constant expectations that something is about to happen. The images are being imposed that a human is an enemy to another human. The one that lives with the wolves learns to howl. These are precisely some animal mindsets, that one should always strive for something. Not just to come and reach an agreement, but to come, take something, strive for something, impose something and so on. While you can just approach a person and just come to an agreement. Oksana Kushch: I would also like to note what role the mass media play in all this. I mean, in creating slavery for us, for people. Wherever we go, everywhere we are accompanied by advertising. And it is so aggressive and intrusive – it’s in public transportation, on the streets, in newspapers, on TV. Everywhere we are encouraged to buy and acquire through pictures, through slogans. It can be different in a creative and constructive society. By these tools we are now being manipulated, forced to consume, made to want. We are forced to identify ourselves with these videos, which are used in advertising models to arouse desire. The same tools can be used for a person to rise in a creative and constructive society. But not to rise in someone’s eyes or above someone, but to rise in the Spirit. To rise in love, in kindness.
Such examples already exist. When people themselves, on their own initiative, post creative quotes that help a person recall who he is. What is his real purpose? Therefore, I would also like to recall the video that was released on ALLATRA TV, it is called “CONSCIOUSNESS AND PERSONALITY. FROM THE INEVITABLY DEAD
TO THE ETERNALLY ALIVE”, and it contained a video of the subway of the future. It’s clearly shown there what the environment surrounding a person in a creative and constructive society can be like, and where the society itself ensures that a person develops and develops as Personality. Olga Pogorelko: The society we are talking about now wasn’t always like this. 12 thousand years ago, when there was the reign of the Allat sisters, when the main rule for each person was –
I do for people, I do for God. When there was an altruistic society, when no one even allowed the thought that another person was bad. At that time, when going outside, everyone met a friend. And it was a really thriving and joyful world where everyone was comfortable, where people were mature as Personalities. They took responsibility for their spiritual development, they took responsibility for society, and took the real steps so that
Love would flourish in the world. Myroslav Gret: We don’t know much about this history. Igor Naumets: But I must say, and we know this – there was a matriarchy on Earth then. But already with the patriarchal age, and in fact, all we know from history, we know that history begins
allegedly with the Sumerian states. That is, the Sumerian states appeared first. This is where we begin to study the entire history of civilization. As if nothing had happened before. Nevertheless, it was in the Sumerian states that the interest rate was invented 6,000 years ago. And not only invented, but also spelled out in the law. As if preparing people to oppose each other, to exalt themselves above others. For example, it is written in the Talmud that you can give a lending interest to everybody, but not to your compatriots. It even says in a direct text that you will give a loan to other nations, and you will rule over them. That is, in fact, 6,000 years ago this model of confrontation was prepared, the model of priests’ rule. It was written down, it was spread around. These books are still being read and studied. Naturally, people trust these books. And this creates such a situation that some people consider themselves to be kings, that they are above the other nations. And it’s like they don’t even stop to think about the fact that we are all the same, that all people on Earth are one spiritual family. And in fact, when this usury virus appeared, when they, in fact, began to lend money, it began to spread quickly around the world. Now there are different historical studies of how
it happened. It is believed that it was during the rule of Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who captured the Jews and brought them to Babylon. And supposedly, this virus, and this may be true, was there even before the Jews arrived in Babylon, but the Jewish farmers had nothing to do there, and they adopted usury as a business. And then, in 70 BC, when the Jews were expelled by the Romans they settled all around the world, carrying this virus, so to speak, all over the globe. Olga Pogorelko: I also have an example from my life, how this loan interest kills everything alive in a human, and indeed, all this is fractal. I had a friend with whom
we were friends for many years. And while we didn’t make a lot of money and shared, as they say, the last piece of bread, everything was fine. Then we started making good money, and one day she came to me and said, “I have a new boyfriend, a very high-profile boyfriend. I have to appear a certain way
and be a part of a certain circle.” Accordingly, when entering certain circles – makeup, clothes and, in general, all these attributes of significance are needed. She said, “Give me some money as a loan at ten percent interest per week.” That’s really a lot. I also noted this interesting thought in myself. I agreed to this. And two weeks later, the animal nature just took over, that the money was just pouring in. You give, and you get it back. That is, forty percent per month is good. Of course, this didn’t last long. The thing is, I dragged a few more people into this scam with a simple message: “Do you want to make money fast?” Although there was an internal dissonance, and there was an understanding that it was not right. How did this story end? First, my friend was beaten and put in jail by those who were her boyfriends. That’s when our relationship ended. And when I analyzed that situation, doesn’t this happen with each of us? Didn’t the ones in power, those eighty-five or those twelve families, don’t we sponsor their lives, their dresses, their entertainment, their lives “worthy of a human”? Who pays for all these expenses, friends? Who works in the mine, in the factory, who earns money? We do. We are the ones who earn this money. There is another pattern from the consciousness that I’ve analyzed and which can be heard in society. When I worked for a man of low moral character
for fifteen years, who really insulted people and
paid them very low wages. And when I quit after fifteen years, I had an insistent thought from consciousness that I would be happy if he asked me
to lend him some money. Then I would show him who I am and who he is. Friends, isn’t that what’s happening to us today? Natalia Zinovchuk: Exactly right. Basically, we live in a format, I would even say in a matrix, which is formed and formatted in this way. To be more precise, it was formatted six thousand years ago and it all keeps repeating itself. Stories repeat themselves. And that’s, basically, exactly how we live. With the same mindsets in our heads. There is constant fight for territories, constant redistribution of resources and material goods, constant race for profit and aspiration for money.
What is all this? These are all manifestations of the matrix we live in. Essentially, we forget about our souls. Who we really are in this race. Tatiana Peuvrel: You know, probably, if one is honest with himself, not even for the public, everyone can tell a similar story. Absolutely everyone. Maybe, it won’t be about a girlfriend,
there may be variations. The sums are different, the percentages are different, but the meaning is the same – freebie. Olga Pogorelko: Yes. Tatiana Peuvrel: How to get something for free at the expense of someone? And this… Meaning, not to go and earn money together, but how to make free money. That’s it. This is a mouse trap from the system. It is a mouse trap from our consciousness. There is nothing that can be done
without effort, without attention. And if you look at the balance sheet – how much effort and attention you put into it – was it worth that money and so on. Olga Pogorelko: This virus penetrates all spheres. Let’s recall the banking system. You invest your own money, and you are charged a percentage for circulation of your own money. Tatiana Peuvrel: I can tell you what’s going on in Switzerland now. Because in Switzerland, the interest has been negative already for three years. That is, it’s neither a negative interest rate nor a money transfer fee. But the very fact that your money is kept there, gives them the opportunity to charge you. Igor Naumenko: That is, you are being robbed. In fact, your money is being robbed. Tatiana Peuvrel: Yes. So they use your money, they return credits, give loans and so on and so forth, and you pay them for that. Igor Naumenko: A new form of robbery. Olga Pogorelko: And this amid the fact that a lot of people die of hunger today. A lot of families. Here’s how my friend has been living for the last ten years. She gets her salary, pays off her debt and takes a loan again… That is, she lives at break-even and negative. Igor Naumenko: But in history we know that in the Middle Ages, there was even death penalty for lending. That is, it was equated to murder in fact. Tatiana Peuvrel: Women and children were given away. Igor Naumenko: Right, that’s what it actually leads to – slavery. And by the way, in Babylon there was an ancient proverb: “To lend money means to push one off an abyss”. And this topic is very deep and we can devote an entire separate programme to the interest rate. It will be very interesting, so I think that… Olga Pogorelko: It’s like ulcers in this society. Bogdan Novytskyi: I would like to say a little more. I would like to open another such ulcer. Reading the Constitution of any country, we see that natural resources and wealth belong to people. Now we open our eyes, look at the facts and see that these resources and riches belong to a very narrow circle of people. The question is how this has happened? Why is this happening? Olga Pogorelko: We handed over the responsibility. We did it ourselves. It was imposed on us. Let’s speak in plain words. We were deceived, we were fooled. In plain words, we accepted this as our point of view. Bogdan Novytskyi: We gave away the responsibility for our lives, gave power to other people, and they aren’t able to cope with it. We have been taught, yes, to shift the responsibility. Myroslav Gret: The main thing that was taken away from us is knowledge. The knowledge about a human. Tatiana Peuvrel: This responsibility for ourselves was taken away from us and it is just a pattern from consciousness – to always look for someone to give it to. We were taught to give responsibility to someone else so as to blame someone else. Igor Naumenko: So, we actually delegate our rights. Even when we sort it out. We have a lot of rights under the law. We can elect whoever we want. But in fact, we actually delegate our powers, our right to those whom we elect. In fact, to the authorities. And the authorities come and exploit us. Corruption is everywhere, collection is everywhere, taxes are everywhere. While we continue: we have elected some people – got the same thing. We have delegated the issues to others – got the same thing again. So, in fact, maybe we should stop delegating and take on the responsibility ourselves? Oksana Kushch: Yes, in such a case, when we delegate power to someone, it is precisely these people who live well after that. The rest of us live badly. Whereas, everyone needs to live well. Therefore, one shouldn’t shift the responsibility. Igor Naumets: In fact, this has been happening
for 6000 years, and we are in a state of constant tension and problems. Bogdan Novytskyi: I would say they also don’t live well. Is it really good to take something from others? What is going on in these people’s inner world? Anger, aggression, violence. I would call this “hell”. How can this be good? Olga Pogorelko: Right. Igor Naumets: Yet, it is so easy to change everything, actually. It doesn’t require any wars or revolutions. We do not need any demonstrations for this, or to overthrow someone. Everything depends on us, on our choice. After all, the government is when it should be better and better for people every year, and not worse, as it is now. Olga Pogorelko – I would say even more: as humans, we have the right to live differently. It’s a total lie that a human should live like a mortal worm: constantly earn money, constantly strive for something, support someone… Bogdan Novytskyi: To envy and hate. Olga Pogorelko: to envy, to fight. This is demeaning of human to the level of a mortal worm. Guys! This is not ours! Who wants to label themselves this way now? Nobody! We are spiritual beings. A human is a sacred name in whom Spirit prevails. In fact, each person has the need to live in the Spirit, in joy, in Love and in a good mood, to share with others, to share their blessings and to do something good. This is the need of a person. We were really deceived. Besides, we need nothing to make up now, but we just need to start living like humans. And we are already doing this. Right now we are doing it. This is a creative and constructive society – when every person is like that. Igor Naumets: After all, humans were created on Earth by God to be happy, to live in Love, in prosperity, peacefully and joyfully. I think that a creative and constructive society is one where people are always happy. In order for them to be happy, to be free, they probably need to be freed from this by some simple mechanisms. So that there is no inflation, so that there are normal, decent salaries and there is no interest interest. Maybe, we should simply discuss these issues, discuss what is needed in order to create a creative and constructive society. Bogdan Novytskyi: In a creative and constructive society, people live in Love and friendship. Olga Pogorelko: Right, and I would also add here — in a creative and constructive society, there is confidence in the future, when each of us goes to bed with absolute peace and happiness and wakes up with absolute peace and happiness. Natalia Zinovchuk: I’ve just thought about the faces of the elderly people. For me, a creative and constructive society is one in which the elderly people have peaceful faces. There’s no fear of tomorrow on their faces, there’s no pain, there’s no sadness. That is, they are people who have already lived their lives and have their life experience, they should be happy too. In a creative and constructive society, a human shouldn’t have fear of tomorrow. Bogdan Novytskyi: That’s right. Olga Pogorelko: Yes, it’s safe. Bogdan Novytskyi: For this, society must be peaceful. There should be no wars. It should live as one family. Olga Pogorelko: That is, what is included in the social minimum in a creative and constructive society for every person? The dietary requirement is what should be set, and a person should always have this no matter his or her age, no matter what country he or she lives in. To be able to dress decently, to be able to get decent shoes, get a decent education and medical care. That is, every person in a creative and constructive society should have this minimum. Tatiana Peuvrel: It is like with any organism. When people work together for the benefit of society, based on their capabilities, and so on, we get such an analogy, that everything repeats itself fractally, just like in the organism. As soon as a person starts to behave selfishly, it is like a cancer cell that pulls everything onto itself and destroys everything around it. How do I see a creative and constructive society? As a true entrepreneur, I see it this way – it’s safe when you make an agreement with a person, when the terms of the agreement are observed by both sides, when it’s fair, when there is… Olga Pogorelko: It’s beneficial for everyone. Tatiana Peuvrel: …benefits, mutually beneficial… Olga Pogorelko: Mutually beneficial. Tatiana Peuvrel: Mutually beneficial. There will be no social problems in a creative and constructive society, because there are no social inequalities
in a creative society. This is mutually beneficial when you understand, well, anyone of us… How much pleasure we get when we give! When we give sincerely, just because it is from the heart, so to speak. And this feeling fills one! Whereas when you buy, so to speak, a thing so much desired, then this feeling lasts — let’s be honest — 3 minutes, maybe, 5… Olga Pogorelko: At best. Tatiana Peuvrel: …if it’s a car, the feeling lasts for 24 hours. That’s it. No more. Without spiritual and moral values there can be no creative and constructive society, without understanding who I am, what my goal is. Myroslav Gret: I would add that everyone should think now: manufacturer, buyer, seller — about the fact that in such a society, it is time and attention that are valued, time and attention of every person. Each of us should ask the question now: “Do I really need all the things that surround me at work, at home, etc.?” It’s all a resource, a vital resource of humankind, of every person, this is my resource, your resource, and every person’s. If a person understands that the most valuable resource he or she has is time and, secondly, attention, and where one directs it, then we see the correct vector of development of this society. If we do not understand it as a value of life, this society simply cannot exist normally. Therefore, a creative society is where the value of each person’s life is understood. Igor Naumets: First of all, we have to limit capital, because if a person is limited in capital accumulation, then there will be no sense for a person to endlessly accumulate resources, means, and material values, because a person cannot stop. He already keeps accumulating more and more. He already has enough. He may already be a billionaire, but he still keeps accumulating. Because this is a process that consciousness cannot stop. It is insatiable. Because if we do not stop unlimited capital accumulation, we will not stop inflation. And if we don’t stop inflation, we won’t stop wars, because war generates all these problems. Moreover, it is often the reason why these wars are being fought. Natalia Zinovchuk: Actually, capital limitation has many advantages. If we talk about economic benefits, there will be a huge amount of free money that can be redirected to solving social and economic problems. In fact, in our society we have already indicated how many ulcers there are, how many problems there are that have not been solved for centuries, or it’s made to look like they are being solved, but in reality, everything remains the same it’s always been. This money can be spent on some research projects. It can be directed to cleaning up the environment. We are still breathing dirty air — that’s how much litter our planet is covered with. We need new technologies for water and air purification. Articles of food, for example, leave much to be desired. After all, it’s all possible — to direct all means towards addressing these problems. It is possible to redistribute them to those countries where people do not have enough natural resources, where their lives are harsh and poor as a result of some external factors. We can direct resources there and support them. It is possible to implement a lot of projects that will make people happy, and they will be able to live in prosperity. Igor Naumets: In the programme, Igor Mikhailovich suggested that the limitation of capital should be at the level of 10 million dollars per family. This, in fact, should be decided by people in a referendum. But basically, it is reasonable, because this amount is sufficient to feel comfortable and absolutely safe. Moreover, one must understand that when there is limitation of capital, excessive pricing will simply disappear. Many people are trying to build houses in some neighborhoods, basically the same houses as in other neighborhoods. But this particular neighborhood is considered to be somehow more elite, therefore, real estate there is twice or three times more expensive. Bogdan Novytskyi: Yes, I would also like to add about the limitation of capital, how it can affect and change the current situation. The most important thing, in my opinion, is that it removes the competition between people. Why do wars happen in our world? Everything starts simply: people start chasing and trying to make more money, they start taking away from each other. They become leaders of the nations, set these nations against each other in order to seize some resources, gain power and eventually take over the entire world. This, after all, is the final goal of the consciousness, it works this way and that is why we fight. If we remove or limit capital accumulation, for instance a person, having earned, let’s say, 10 million, can then work only for the benefit of the whole society. Accordingly, what starts happening is that this person, instead of thinking about how to take from his neighbour everything he has and force him to fulfill his will at any cost, having trampled everything human in himself, — instead of all that he begins to think about how to help his neighbour, how to improve the environment, how to… I don’t know, to make
a garden out of the Sahara. That’s how it will be if everybody starts thinking like that, if one begins to take responsibility and understand what he or she is doing in general. For example, one is an entrepreneur and is producing some kind of a product. He’ll ask himself, “Let’s see, here’s my product, what does it give to humanity in general? Is it harmful or useful? If, for instance, he produces alcohol. Well, as an example, that’s a good industry, right? Olga Pogorelko: A profitable one! Natalia Zinovchuk: It is! Bogdan Novytskyi: And here he starts to understand that this is poison and he, to put it mildly, how to express it in a civilized way… Olga Pogorelko: You don’t have to. You should say it like: it leads a human being to death. Bogdan Novytskyi: It’s poisonous. It poisons people, right. And it leads them to death, and it leads them to becoming a subpersonality to be completely precise. Then he will just stop producing it. If everyone does so, how much time do you think we need to make a blossoming garden out of the earth? Tatiana Peuvrel: Very little! Olga Pogorelko: And very quickly! Bogdan Novytskyi: Five years, I think, is even a lot, but only if we do it all together and all at once. Myroslav Gret: I would also add that nowadays in the society there is such an evil understanding that “money makes you happy”, while in fact, it is not in money. I remember Oksana once told us an interesting real story. Oksana Kushch: Yes, this occasion turned many things upside down in me. It actually made me wonder: what constitutes happiness? Can money buy it? Is it really in material wealth and the things that we are now accustomed to striving for? Once I worked for a company, the director and owner of which was quite a wealthy and rich man. We were having a meeting, and during that meeting, another employee, who had recently taken a job, came in. She was very young, but her eyes were sparkling, she was shining. She came in in a very good mood to sign some kind of a document. And when she left, this rich man, this director put his head on his hands and asked such a sacramental question that stunned us all. He asked, “Please, tell me why she’s so happy? Isn’t she a pauper?” That is, a person who could afford a hobby, travel and all the attributes of a prosperous life… Tatiana Peuvrel: Oksana, a person gets tired of this. Honestly, from my own experience, for example, a five-star hotel? Yes, for the first time it is cool, but when it’s a hundred and sixtieth time, it’s the same, it’s not me, it’s all standard, it’s all, well…, it’s boring. Consciousness is like that: it will be drawing for you something you don’t have, so that you strive for it and when you get it, it starts drawing something else again. However, when you get such resources that you can afford everything, it’s like a very good friend of mine said, “You know, the biggest disappointment in my life was when I made my first million. I realized that it wasn’t enough.” Myroslav Gret: There is an interesting quote. I would say that a person should think about what he is producing and selling. And here is an interesting quote from the world’s poorest president, as he is called, the President of Uruguay, José Mujica, I will read it, ”Uruguay is a small country, and we do not have a presidential jet. We don’t especially care to have one. Instead of buying a presidential jet, from France we decided to buy a very expensive helicopter, a rescue helicopter with surgical facilities, posted in central Uruguay to rescue accident victims, and offer ongoing emergency medical services. It is so easy! A president jet, or a rescue chopper. It seems to me, to be a question of sobriety.” Well, that means that the accumulation of funds does not lead to happiness, and we see this. Bogdan Novytskyi: What happens in the lives of rich people, how their lives progress. Even assuming that a person starts without a lot of capital and he is really successful in today’s terms. The accumulation of capital begins. The competition begins. The purchase of some things, cars and villas, houses and yachts begins. All this requires some crazy amount of attention and money just like work does. A man surrounded by all this makes other people jealous. While envy is hate. In fact, he lives all the time as a target for this dependence and hatred. While some of them, not even in a figurative sense, but in the literal sense of the word, those who go even further, those who are trying to enslave countries, to seize power there and who are striving for more and more. All this is very sad of course. Igor Naumets: Here we should understand that if we do not limit the capital, then ultimately money is accumulated in the hands of a narrow circle of people and they can influence politics and economy…Bogdan Novytskyi: They can dictate, I would say. Igor Naumets: Dictate not only to one country, but to the whole world. Oksana Kushch: In fact, this format was imposed on us a long time ago – 6,000 years ago. For us, people, it is natural to live in a different society, in a different format – in a creative and constructive format. Today there are all the conditions for us to build such a society: there is the Internet, there are means of communication and various technologies, thanks to which we can unite with the whole world and make a decision. Society can organize itself and take responsibility. The first step for this is to inform all people that it is possible and that we have the right to live in a different way, and it’s easy to do so. Olga Pogorelko: Right, and I would like to return to the format of our conversation, of our discussion – it is the economy, the introduction of a new model and what changes are needed. One of these changes, in my opinion,
a very important one, is the absence of inflation and setting fixed prices. Igor Naumets: In the creative and constructive society, there should be no inflation at all. Prices should be fixed, and fixed for a long period of time. Well, always: in 10 years identical goods should cost the same amount of money, as well as in 100 years, and in 200 years. Then people will be happy, because there will be no need to constantly think and worry, and save, because the available resources and the accumulated capital we are talking about, will be enough to provide for oneself and one’s family and to free up time for being happy. After all, the Lord has created us to be happy and to live in Joy and Love, yet we are constantly thinking about earning money and saving it. It is clear that the reason for this is the lending interest rate and unbridled capital accumulation, but in any case there should be no inflation, that is, prices should be the same both in 10 years and in 100 years. Myroslav Gret: The question is how we’re going to set these prices? Oksana Kushch: We can invite more specialists to join a discussion of these issues, and they can combine their professional experience and life experience, and together people can do everything.
People have power. Bogdan Novytskyi: Namely, it’s not about people serving the economy, but the economy serving people. Oksana Kushch: So that no one is disadvantaged. Olga Pogorelko: To make it beneficial for everyone. We should live in a society where everyone benefits, therefore we do not need to compete
and kill each other. Natalia Zinovchuk: You know, I want to say that when I first heard about fixing the prices for 10 years, for 100 years, my consciousness was just stunned. I’ve got an education in classical economics, and there was a thought in my head: “It’s impossible! What are they saying? It’s nonsense! Well, it just can’t be!” And I think that people who majored in economics are going to reject this idea for some time like I did. Why did I dread this idea so much? Because I was judging and evaluating from the perspective of consumer society. Indeed, those people will be right
when rejecting this idea, because it is impossible to implement this in a consumer society. But here we are talking about a creative and constructive society. And in such a society it is implied that we are going to have alternative energy sources and the technologies that are fundamentally different. That is, we will be able to collect or produce the very amount of material goods to make the price fixing process quite simple and easy. Tatiana Peuvrel: In other words, the accumulation of material goods will be useless. In fact, the prices will be…Natalia Zinovchuk: We still need some level to… Tatiana Peuvrel: I mean the accumulation. Bogdan Novytskyi: The relationship itself will be different. It will be a humane-to-humane relationship. Tatiana Peuvrel: Right, it will be a humane-to-humane model, that is, the production will be taken to a different level: it will be a quality- and purpose-driven production, not a quantity-driven one. Natalia Zinovchuk: Right. I think we also have to consider the fact that it will take some time to transfer from consumer economy, which we have now, to a creative and constructive one, the economy of creative and constructive society. And it will be the period of transfer in our minds, in the society itself, in technologies, in production, and so on. That is, we should consider that it will be kind of a process. This transition will take some time. Olga Pogorelko: And this process should take place peacefully. Why? Because people will just come to an agreement. Myroslav Gret: What about the logistics then? Igor Naumets: If we are talking
about fixed prices in general, then the prices for at least the main types of products should be the same all over the world, that is, they should cost the same amount of money. This can be achieved by taking into account
a planned economy, that is, we can call it a creative planned economy – the essence will not change much. But nevertheless, it is a planned economy, which should take into account logistics. For example, let’s say, bananas are
being brought here from Africa and apples are being taken to Africa from here. Given the fact that there are transportation costs both here and there, they can compensate each other by balancing prices. And apples can cost the same both in Africa and here, just like in general should other types of products. Of course, without such a fixing, people will feel uncomfortable too. That is, the same basic sets, especially food baskets, should cost the same amount of money all over the world. Natalia Zinovchuk: So, Igor, you think that such fixation of prices will provide certain advantages to people? Igor Naumets: Of course. First of all, people won’t have to look for a better location – it will be good everywhere on Earth, so to speak. Of course, this will apply to wages too, which we also need to discuss so that there is no relocation of labor resources and no labor migration, as we now say. But without fixed prices (and the provision of, for example, the same basic services should also be at fixed prices) it will be difficult to achieve this. Bogdan Novytskyi: Of energy resources. Igor Naumets: Of energy resources as well, of course. Myroslav Gret: There are a lot of issues that will still need to be addressed. Oksana Kushch: Yes, and the creative format first of all gives, we have already talked about it, security, safety for each person. That is, if something happens to a person, if he needs medical assistance, he can rest assured that he will receive quality medical assistance anywhere on the planet. And if, for example, he has a child, who is getting ready to go to school, a person doesn’t have to worry that he will receive the wrong kind of education – he is certain that the child will receive the education he dreams of: something worthwhile. Myroslav Gret: Meaning, in society, there should be a decent life for everyone. Oksana Kushch: And a safe one. Bogdan Novytskyi: I think that both medicine and education should be free. Myroslav Gret: Yes. Natalia Zinovchuk: You know, I’ve just thought about how much we still have to discuss: what kind of healthcare there will be in a creative and constructive society, what kind of education there will be in a creative and constructive society. Olga Pogorelko: All the spheres.
Natalia Zinovchuk: Yes, practically. What kind of energy sources will be used, what technologies will be used – we have a lot of work to do. And it would be good if everyone could join in – experts, professionals, and simply people who want to change something for the better in this world, and to arrange such a, let’s say, public discussion of all these problems. I think it would be great. Oksana Kushch: Yes, because a creative and constructive society is one of the important preconditions, it is an active life position of every person. And it is in this format that every person
can bring out all the best, all the achievements that he has,
both professional and human ones, and can participate in the creation of such a society. Myroslav Gret: This is about everyone being rich. Igor Naumets: That’s our task, to make sure that people on earth would have only a high standard and sufficient standard
for a good, decent life. For this, normal salaries are needed,
and first and foremost, these salaries should be fixed in major sectors, again, all over the world. So that there would be no diversion of labour resources. And again, if a person suddenly doesn’t want to work, well okay, this is his right, there should be social housing, social security that allows a person to live, well, at some sufficient level, at a decent level, so to speak. But if he wants to live better, richer, he has to go to work, it’s normal, and earn money.
But so that he, again, feels free and happy, and doesn’t have to go to some other country
to earn money, the basic professions should have the same salary around the world. Natalia Zinovchuk: What do we see now? For all intents and purposes, our salary is like a chain that ties every person up. Big salary is a big chain, small salary — a small chain. And we all live in such fear of losing this chain. How are we going to live without this chain? While in fact, it is actually very possible to live without this chain and to implement… Igor Naumets: And there should be no taxes on wages. Olga Pogorelko: I also wanted to say about a salary, how it’s happened in my life (and I think that everyone faces this today, because it’s imposed on consciousness). For 15 years I was working for a man, as I said, who morally oppressed people, he really did it. We didn’t have very high salaries and there were about 300 people in the team. I was one of those people
who repeatedly raised the question: “Let’s get together, go and reasonably present our position, that my… I am doing the following work. I guess that my salary should be like this.” That is, I suggested that we write up
and present the evidence, although for the owner it is obvious that he is getting richer precisely at the people’s expense. And what did I observed both in myself and in the team? I observed animal fear, as we say, so strong (and everyone voiced it) that your stomach starts spasming, a person loses his voice, it just disappears as if someone is strangling him, his hands start sweating. Animal fear starts in him just from imagining that he will go and ask for a salary. Whereas this is not the point, that’s not what he is afraid of, and it is not him who is afraid of it. That’s how strongly this is imposed on people’s consciousness today. Out of the entire team, only about five people had the courage to go and ask. And when we asked, and everything was substantiated, and he couldn’t igore it, because we were key specialists (well, I was also one of the key specialists of the company). And when I was asking on behalf of the department as well, that is, the people who follow me, and I heard the same phrase all the time: “Well, I’ll give it to you, but not them, I mean… they…”. Listen, today every single person lives in this slavery. We work for food, people work for food. It’s not a chain, it’s shackles. And as we said, a big salary means a big chain. You have more fear of losing something because you supposedly have benefits. Meaning, this is a dead end. Natalia Zinovchuk: I’ve just recalled an example. Just the other day, I witnessed a conversation in the street between a young mother and a five-year-old girl. So, I heard a fragment of a phrase, when she said to the girl: ‘…Well, if he doesn’t work, he won’t have money to buy food.” And this sounded so crazy to me, that it’s already being ingrained into this little child’s consciousness that “you have to work, otherwise you will not eat, and that’s it, you will be hungry.” That is, this element of fear is already being taught. Olga Pogorelko: Whereas in a creative and constructive society, as Igor also said, a person may not work, if he does not want to or can not, perhaps, for some reason such as physical health… he may not work, but the state must give him a subsidy so that he lives a decent life. We should live a decent life. Is it really life, that what we’ve been saying? What is happening now is not life, it is imposed fear, imposed six thousand years ago, people were deceived. And one thing was imposed on us, “you have no right to this. You must be silent and obey.” Natalia Zinovchuk: And be afraid at that. Olga Pogorelko: And at the same time, be afraid. Friends, we have the right to live happily, we have the right to earn well, we have the right to say how we want to live. We have the right to this. Oksana Kushch: And power actually belongs to people. It is recorded by people, it is recorded even in many constitutions,
as Bogdan has said. And these are actually people who have the power. Olga Pogorelko: Of course. How many of those rulers, oppressors of the people, and how many people are there? Seven billion people. Bogdan Novytskyi: And with whose hands are they, in fact, driving us into this slavery? With our own hands, that’s what is interesting. Natalia Zinovchuk: With our silent consent. Bogdan Novytskyi: Regarding salaries. In a creative economy, wages must be, first of all, decent, and secondly,
they must be the same around the world. What I mean is that people of the same profession should get the same salary in different countries, in any country. That is, if a driver gets, for example, $20 per hour in Kiev, he should get the same amount in Uganda, in the United States or somewhere else. I’m not talking about the number now, I’m talking about the principle. This is the first point. And the second point is that it should be a decent salary. What does the first point give? It eliminates the need for, as they say in Ukraine, “travel for work”. This is, in fact, slavery when people go away for six months, for a year, live somewhere, separated from their families, separated from their loved ones, relatives. Often without even knowing the language, under different conditions, sometimes there are more or less humane conditions, sometimes not really. But they are not at home. They sell their lives,
I can’t even really find the right words. Then they come home, bring money and leave again. And this is how their lives go by. This is unacceptable in a creative and constructive society, it shouldn’t be like this. A person should have an option of working 4 hours,
4 days a week, and that should be enough to support themselves decently and to have a lot of free time for spiritual development, for communication with loved ones, with people, with relatives, for raising children and for participation
in some creative projects. To do something good, to be in unity with all people. Miroslav Gret: And what else should we do to turn to a creative economy, to a creative and constructive society?
What do you think? Olga Pogorelko: To cancel debts, I think, is just a necessary measure. And, moreover, it will be both the cancellation of debts between countries and people’s individual debts. But it seems to me that this is a rather big topic. I’m not sure whether we
will expand on it now or..? Natalia Zinovchuk: I think it
will be in the next programme, because debts are actually a
tool for manipulating people. Moreover,
this tool is created artificially, and it is applied in
such a sophisticated way, that’s why I think it would be right
to expose all these mechanisms, which have to do with debt, with credit – these are
interrelated notions – with lending interest and so on. To show how these things
work in every country, and in fact, the mechanism is the
same, but it’s sophisticated, forcing one into enslavement and
violence towards people in general. Igor Naumets: Yes. The main thing is not to
turn this write-off into a political game. We all remember, for example, in 2008,
when people in Reykjavik in Iceland took to the streets to protest against
the repayment of debts to creditors. It is clear that politicians
have already begun to use the impulse of the
masses in their interests, but, nevertheless,
nowadays debt in many countries is more than 50%
and even 70% of GDP. There are countries where
debt is 100% and more. Of course, they pay huge amounts of
interest each year to repay these loans. This money could have been spent
on health care, social programs, creation of new jobs, that is, everything
could have been allocated to this. But in order to do this, naturally,
it is necessary to cancel debts. As for private debts, of course,
they should also be cancelled, but again,
there is one small trick here. We have to be sure that debt on
luxury goods won’t be cancelled. Of course, we must first of all cancel
the debt in education and healthcare, the loans that people have
taken out for self-development, and finally, even for social
housing and for medical treatment. We must make sure that it
does not come to the point where loans for luxury goods and
other things will be cancelled out. Olga Pogorelko: That’s why people themselves should
make this proposal with supporting argumentation. I think it would be appropriate, of
course, to invite subject-matter experts. Well, in reality, everything is easy to do –
the decision is made, again, by all countries. Cancellation must
be done globally. Bogdan Novytskyi: We just
shouldn’t divide into countries. We should remember that
we are all human beings. And countries, states and governmental
authorities will have to fulfill our will. Igor Naumets: There should be no borders
in a creative and constructive society. We must be able to
move around freely. The level of healthcare should
be the same in all countries, so that we do not have to go to
another country for medical treatment. But at the same time, people would have the
opportunity to travel freely all over the world without obstacles, without
borders, without what we have now. Myroslav Gret: Cancellation of debts, as such, also
helps to resume communication between nations. And even if we recall a personal example, when
we forgave a debt or one was forgiven for us, this communication
immediately… It’s as if your
heart was like lead, and you just went ahead and
forgave this debt to a person. Immediately, both you and
the person have free energy, which gives you an opportunity
to implement something. And this load which is carried
now by the entire humanity – it can just be voided out of the
agreement, can disappear. Olga Pogorelko: What does any question,
which we are now raising, come up against? Without spiritual and moral perfection
of a human and humankind as a whole, the mechanisms will not work,
because the animal is insatiable. It wants to divide, it wants to rule, it
cannot be satiated and this is its nature. Therefore, at the basis of a creative
and constructive society stands a person who is spiritually developed,
who is on the position of the spiritual, when the Spirit prevails, when he takes
responsibility for his spiritual development and for life,
creative life in the whole society. Then any changes are
really very simple. They are logical and everyone
wants to live like that. Tatiana Peuvrel: This is a logical
consequence of one’s personal development. It is truly necessary to start
with spiritual and moral values. Because even the European
Union wasn’t a bad idea, no borders, common principles, everything is beautifully
written on paper and the UN too, but, in fact,
there is a substitution. Why? Because again,
there is the divide and rule principle. There are models, they
exist, but they didn’t work. Natalia Zinovchuk: Because
on what basis are they used? Myroslav Gret: On consumer-based
and political interests. Tatiana Peuvrel: Right,
interest of some people. And this very impulse, the personal impulse of every
Personality of people was again perverted by some… because there was an
impulse without Knowledge. Now we have a huge
advantage in our society – we have pure Knowledge,
we have Knowledge without substitution. We have all this,
precisely the foundation – we have it. That is,
all these models of society, in the discussion of which
many people can now join us, or the next discussion, and they might say, “Well,
over there it’s not right, or this isn’t right.” True, but there was
no foundation there. Any builder will tell you that any house, no
matter how beautiful or luxurious it is – if there is no foundation,
it will not hold up. If it is built on sand,
this will be useless. Bogdan Novytskyi: When everything is built on lies,
on deception – that’s what it, in fact, becomes. Myroslav Gret: We’ve started
talking about construction, but what about the utility
bills in this society? Igor Naumets: And taxes are also a
separate and very interesting question. Here,
look how interesting it is. It seems we buy houses, land,
even cars and this is our property. We have bought it but still, we have to
pay taxes afterwards – real property taxes. I can give you such an example. When we buy real estate,
land, house or apartment, it seems that since we have paid for
it, we own it, we are the owners. Nevertheless, we are taxed,
there is a property tax. So I would like to ask: have we bought a property or have we
rented it and continue to pay for it? Why are we charged
taxes for real estate? Natalia Zinovchuk: I can
explain what taxes are. In fact,
it is a tool for robbing people. Look, we get a salary
or buy something – we have to give away
some part of our salary. Where are we giving
this money to? We give it either to the central
budget or to local budgets. We simply became poorer
by some amount of money. I wish we were only talking about
taxes, say, on our income, but in fact, there are many of them.
just rates are different. Let’s take payments
to the pension fund. Apparently, the government takes care
of the function of our social protection and it declares that we need
government to be socially protected. Yet, who really pays
for this protection? After all, a part of our salary is withheld
and transferred to the pension fund. In addition, an economic entity,
that is, an employer also pays a certain amount of money for each
worker to the same pension fund. This amount, which was transferred
by the company to that pension fund, is added to the production cost
and is included in the price. Thus, when we go to a store and buy
some goods or receive some service, we pay to the
pension fund again. Ultimately, it turns out that we
pay for our own social protection, while the state just manages us. Bogdan Novytskyi: They just collect their
commissions. Natalia Zinovchuk: Yes, commissions. Olga Pogorelko: And do it again and again! Natalia
Zinovchuk: Absolutely right! Olga Pogorelko: Nonstop! Natalia Zinovchuk: Just look at the
army of officials from the pension fund! Look at how many there are! Igor Naumets: But what’s most interesting
is that the pension fund never has funds. So, they keep raising the retirement
age just to fill the pension fund again! Natalia Zinovchuk: In fact, forty
percent of people do not live to the age when they can count on their pension.
Just think about it – forty percent of people! Olga Pogorelko: They have just
raised the retirement age again. Igor Naumets: And because
life expectancy is going up, they raise the retirement age
to deceive the population again. Natalia Zinovchuk: Well, right.
And the third aspect to be disclosed is the amount of pension
that people receive! Here I have the following
example: a good friend of mine who has worked as a pediatrician in
a children’s clinic for thirty years. I know personally how many children she
has saved and pulled back from beyond. Now she gets a pension which is just
enough to pay for the utilities! It’s good that she has children, they help her,
give her some support, but still, it’s not enough. She has to work. That is,
being a pensioner, she doesn’t just work. What is a family
doctor for a district? It’s night-time
calls, it’s child’s… It is a call at any time of day or night, and a
necessity to get up at any time. And it is endless … Tatiana Peuvrel: Children don’t usually get
sick before 6 p.m., usually it happens after. Natalia Zinovchuk: After six as
well, that’s right! But that’s not even the point. She has a constant fear that she will
be fired because of her retirement age, although she is a very good specialist! She’s always
asking herself, “How will I live if I get fired?” So she has to work as
long as she is alive. Coming back to the issue
of taxes or deductions, basically they are also related to health
insurance and unemployment insurance. Here, the principle is the same. That is, they just take the money from
us, it’s not clear what for. We are being robbed,
while they’re calling it taxes! Igor Naumets: In my opinion, there
should be no taxation for individuals. Meaning, people should get
a salary free of taxes. But if we are talking about utility bills, you
know, there is even such a concept as tithing. It has historically proved itself
and can be shown in many examples. In my opinion, all our utility
payments, as well as loan payments (let’s clarify, that is a social
loan, which is not related to luxury) should not exceed ten
percent of the salary. And electricity, gas,
garbage disposal, that is, all life-supporting programs
needed by population, should be provided to the
population at minimum prices. Today, many countries with significant
gas reserves set an example of selling the gas to their population at very
affordable prices or even distributing the gas for free. All this can be done
in the whole world, because in a creative and constructive society
resources should belong to society itself, and not to certain individuals. This primarily relates to mineral
resources and means of communication, so that there is no manipulation, it is the Internet,
television, the press, some private possessions. But the essential resources that
cover the whole world should belong to the creative and constructive
society, that is, directly to people. Otherwise, we return to the consumer format again,
and we see the same world we live in now. Olga Pogorelko: And if
we talk about taxes now. Well, who are those who
give money for taxes? It’s each and every one of us, all seven
billion people! Who are the taxpayers? We are!
Who should allocate these taxes? As the saying goes,
“who pays the piper calls the tune.” The question is why not us?! It has
been imposed. We have been deceived. Not only you do pay, but some other guy
decides for you where the money goes! Natalia Zinovchuk: And here is the question:
will the wars end if we are paying for them?! Olga Pogorelko: We are paying for them.
Igor Naumets: Of course, they won’t! Natalia Zinovchuk: No, the wars will go on forever, because
it is profitable for those who collect this money! Olga Pogorelko: You can be
manipulated as long as you have fear. We had a very illustrative
case at our enterprise. When people were just cornered by an
order to work overtime till night, (in spite of the fact that they are already working
in terrible conditions for a pitiful salary ), and they had to stay late and wait
for instructions on what to do next. One man had the courage to call
me since I was his manager, “You can manipulate us as
long as we’re working here, but we are leaving right now and
you can do whatever you want!” And I said, “Kolya, you’ve done the right thing!
That’s the best decision you all could make! Kolya, take everything and leave!
That’s the best thing to do!” And when I had to report on the results
to my managers, I said absolutely boldly: Guys, you can’t control these people!
They don’t work for you anymore! What about the salaries?! – Just keep our
meager salary, we give it to you as a gift. And that’s it!
That’s regarding the question of fears?! You speak and they use
fear as a counterbalance. Tatiana Peuvrel: As an entrepreneur,
I can give advice to any entrepreneur – just try to do it differently from
the way it is imposed on us by society, that it’s precisely the power and
that you are the most important one. I’m talking about my own enterprise, of course.
It’s again, as we have already discussed, that you have to get rid of your
stereotypical patterns, to collect, to understand,
to examine consciousness, because this is of utmost importance.
People are responsible, I don’t ask them, and yet they come on Sundays if
they have not finished their work. So, a person takes responsibility for what he does,
not for the sake of his position or salary.. Because he understands that it
is important for him personally, that it’s the realization of his personal qualities and it’s not
a matter of salary, it is just because he wants to do his best. People work much more effectively when their work
is inspired by their soul and not due to fear! Bogdan Novytskyi: There are a lot of such
examples indeed! Tatiana Peuvrel: A lot! Myroslav Gret: Now about job. I think for a
person to understand the value of his life, his working hours
should be reduced, because otherwise people have no
time to think about themselves, their families and
the value of life. I remember that once we talked
about reduction of working hours. Do you think whether it is still relevant?
Olga Pogorelko: This is highly relevant. Igor Naumets: I think that four hours,
four days a week will be more than enough! Enough, since, as of now our taxes
are used by politicians to enslave us. Interestingly, they use our own money
to create and develop social sciences like sociology and alike,
the sciences which study, describe, and research the means of control
over society, that is, over us. So, they use our money
to control us further on. Natalia Zinovchuk: To tell us how they
will control us! Igor Naumets: Of course. Myroslav Gret: One moment, since my
another speciality is a social psychology, I understand what you mean…
It’s about how to use this tool? You see, sociologists study what society
needs (when conducting their surveys), but the same information is
manipulated by those in power in order to satisfy their
consumeristic goals. We must remember that each person
in his field, he wants to do well, but he is trapped by the system and, as a cell of
this system, must follow some kind of rules… But if I stop being a
cell of this system… Natalia Zinovchuk: Just three
weeks ago I had a thought: I want to work four hours, I no longer
want to work as much as I do now. But for as long as I can remember,
it has always been at least 15 hours a day and sometimes up to two a.m., because, you
know that you’re responsible, you’re needed. And now I’ve decided for myself: that’s
it, I won’t do it anymore. I told myself: “I won’t be
working for more than four hours”. I’m not really good at it yet,
but I think I’m going to start today. Tatiana Peuvrel: But I want to correct
it a little bit for those consciousnesses that think “work for four hours and
do nothing for the rest of the time, meaning, to lie on the
couch and watch TV shows”. The fact is that four hours of work is enough
for the living, the rest, in principle, … I am a workaholic, I can do nothing but
work, to be honest. So, what does it mean? It means that (it doesn’t mean
that I work solely for money), it can be some kind of social
projects, helping, teaching someone – this is also work, work on
oneself, finally, and so on. That is, again, to understand that four
hours is to provide the basic needs. Igor Naumets: And you know
what is interesting here? Right now there are people
who like entrepreneurship, like to work for themselves
and to build up a business. And when they become rich, they get
associated with oligarchs in current society (to put it mildly, they are not
liked, they are rather hated). However, in a creative and constructive
society everything turns out the opposite: when a person reaches his peak of capitalization,
he has a need to work and develop the company, that is, he starts working for the sake of
society, he takes responsibility for the people. And the monad flips over. That is, it turns out that people
who previously did not like him, now begin to treat him with respect,
and he becomes a hero in this society. And while now heroes are those who fight,
gain victories, struggle for something, then heroes for us will be
those people who help society, build it up, support and
sponsor social programmes, … these people will set an example,
will become the role models and heroes. And our attitude towards these
people will be completely different, and the most interesting thing is that receiving
people’s love will be very pleasant for them. It always feels good to be
loved, especially compared to sitting in a golden cage when
everyone around hates you. That is one of the crucial moments. Tatiana Peuvrel: And if you
take a wider perspective, why does consumer society burden people
so much in general, and financially? Because this burden is created artificially.
We’ve figured it out by now – the amount of working time, eight
hours, which is regular hours presently, even that is not enough
– we need twice as much, and even twice as much,
is already not enough. So, why is this done? Firstly, it is clear that this
situation is created artificially. As soon as we take a wider perspective,
we expand our consciousness, even while we are talking here, we understand that it is artificial,
that a person does not need it. Because he will have time to stop and ask himself the question:
why do I need it? How? Why? It’s very interesting, because it turns out that
as a young university graduate you have to, and it turns out that you are caged in a
wooden hamster wheel (like a squirrel). Here is your wooden wheel – a small apartment, and you know, you endlessly need
this and that, this and that… Well, after a while you have a little bigger
cage – it becomes silver, and then gold. And then – and then what? Bogdan Novytskyi: And
then a wooden coffin. Tatiana Peuvrel: And then we go in circles again. Why does it happen? Even when the wheel
does not spin when a person wants to stop, society starts pushing: Oh, you need this and
that and that, promoting these imposed needs. I have just visualized
all these imposed needs. But when you have four hours for
satisfaction of basic financial needs: the rest is up to you,
you work only if you want to Bogdan Novytskyi: If you
want, you can work more. I mean, four hours – you
will keep up with everything, it’s enough time to live
normally and that’s it. If you need more, work more,
it’s your choice. Tatiana Peuvrel: Can you imagine
such a blow to the back of the system when a person ponders: where am I going to?
Why do I need it? What’s in for me?
And what is the purpose? And who is my neighbor? But, guys, many people don’t
even know who they live with. I’m not talking about
knowing the neighbors, even spouses don’t know
who they live with. No, seriously. Bogdan Novytskyi: We
don’t even know ourselves. Why should we go any further?
Let’s get acquainted Tatiana Peuvrel: Sometimes,
there are such people, you know, who leave and stay away
somewhere for years. They do not see their children,
their wives and parents. When they meet again
– they are strangers. Also,
people retire and get divorced. And why?
They don’t know each other, they just met in the kitchen
to have dinner together. Frankly, they don’t
know who this person is, and suddenly they realise that
they are living with someone. It turns out that this race is useless,
and this time should be… It’s important to give a person
the right to choose what he wants: to work or not to work, to read or
take some time for self-development. But today we should understand that this
freedom is not beneficial to the system. It is simply not profitable to the system.
Just stop and do it for nothing. Myroslav Gret: For those who want to know and
understand what we mean by the concept of the system, we recommend watching the programmes with the
participation of Igor Mikhailovich Danilov and get acquainted with all
the programmes on AllatRa TV. Tatiana Peuvrel: And with the
books by Anastasia Novykh, because personally I found absolutely
all answers to my questions there. Olga Pogorelko: And here we have these two
most important resources : time and attention. Right now, we are setting up a creative and constructive
economy with the features we’ve just discussed: both the fixed prices, and the fixed
wages, absence of inflation, and that utility bills aren’t higher
than 10 % from the minimum wage, it turns out that a lot of time
becomes available for a person. Tatiana Peuvrel: And attention. Olga Pogorelko: And attention. And it appears that if any person asks a
question, or consciousness asks him a question: “And what? What does it
all give you personally?” It releases our time for
cognition of ourselves. Because, there is a well-known wisdom:
“If you want to know God, know yourself.” Sorry, but you have to spend time on this
if you want to know yourself. Igor Naumets: It seems,
we release this time just to be happy. That’s the most important thing. Olga Pogorelko: Sure. Tatiana Peuvrel: Yes,
and not to chase after happiness. Bogdan Novitskyi: And a simple answer for
consciousness to this question – peace happens. It’s the most important thing. After
all, this is what every person wants. I do not know if there is anyone who
would like to live in a warzone . Igor Naumets: It is probably true that if
there is an army, then there will be a war. The army should justify its existence. Just as if there is the police,
there will be crime. How can the police exist without crime? Which means it will give
rise to crime anyway. Bogdan Novytskyi: When society lives
in peace, when it lives in friendship, then, in principle: why would we
need the army? We don’t need it. Olga Pogorelko: The army is not needed, but
there are people who can and should help, if, for example, some cataclysm, some meteorite
has fallen, or some natural disaster occurs. That is, a group of professionals
should be there, of course. Well, another issue is how
it should be organized. Bogdan Novytskyi: The prototype is
the Ministry of Emergency Situations, which has quite similar
functions as of now… Igor Naumets: And it should be a single service. It should be all over the world
for the whole world, not as it is now,
not separately for each country. Olga Pogorelko: One orders… Igor Naumets: Of course. There are
separate units in some countries. But it should be a
single worldwide service. It is a kind of emergency service. Olga Pogorelko: We can
give such a definition. Myroslav Gret: To be more precise, this
service should enroll guys who want to help. Igor Naumets: Of course. Olga Pogorelko: Not to kill,
not to rape, but precisely to… Myroslav Gret: The service,
we’re talking about, should serve humanity. Igor Naumets: Should take
responsibility for the people’s health (Myroslav Gret: It’s not obligatory, let’s put it so),
for their lives, for their peace. And again, for this,
we need to eliminate poverty. Why? When there are some
anti-social outcasts , such as homeless people or people who,
let’s say, lead an antisocial lifestyl (primarily it happens because of poverty), and if we get rid of this poverty, if we provide
people with a normal, decent standard of living, social housing for everyone,
ensuring their basic needs, feel decent, then there won’t be such outcasts,
then there won’t be any crime and there will be no
need for the police. That is, in general, all these functions can be taken
over by the emergency service, if any incidents occur. Olga Pogorelko: We
can call it this way. Igor Naumets: As the Ministry of Emergency Situations
exists now, and this service is its prototype. I think there are similar ministries
in all countries. And it should… Bogdan Novytskyi: It won’t be in each
country, this service will be global. Igor Naumets: Of course it won’t. Naturally,
it will serve society as a whole. This is simply a must. Olga Pogorelko: What is the root of
corruption and all these war crimes? Imposition of an image
of an external enemy. The essence is always – to impose
the image of an external enemy. It is an imposed image. Ask each and every person: “Do you want to go to
bed with a thought that you can be killed or kill?” Every sane person,
just everyone, would answer: “I want to live in love, joy and happiness.
I have no enemies. ” Everyone in the
world would say that. Myroslav Gret: In fact, the origin of these conditions is not accidental. If we recall, the bureaucracy began as far back as 6,000 years ago, we saw the records on the Sumero-Akkadian tablets. What were these records about?
About the crops, about… That is, we see that a caste of bureaucrats
was created there, and they created conditions for what
we now call corruption. Because they didn’t make some records or just wrote something off. Tatiana Peuvrel: Yet, the basic structure of a human being is still the humanity and conscience. Natalia Zinovchuk: I wanted to emphasize that the key word here is conscience. This is a tool capable of defeating the corruption. Meaning, these are two complete opposites. If a person has a conscience, it means that he or she will not be corrupted, there is no other way. Tatiana Peuvrel: But again, society creates conditions that even people with conscience may… Olga Pogorelko: It’s imposed. Tatiana Peuvrel: It is imposed on them as if it’s their basic need. Myroslav Gret: I would say that for 6,000 years a slavish format of interaction has been imposed on us. Olga Pogorelko: Because of…. Myroslav Gret: Because of what? Olga Pogorelko: Because we have given away the responsibility to make decisions. Myroslav Gret: Responsibility. Olga Pogorelko: We were told, “Guys, you can’t do it, step back, we can”. Myroslav Gret: I would also say that not only this was imposed on us, but now we are responsible for the unwillingness to study the knowledge about ourselves, about a human being. Why are we discussing this now? Because we have a glimpse of knowledge about ourselves. We have a need to understand why everything is like this in the society. And when we realized that this had started a long time ago… Now I ask myself, is this my worldview? 99% of my worldview is… “I got into such a country, such a family and such a society. Where is my worldview in all this? Who has formed it? Why has it been formed in one way or another? So when a person understands the impact of what has been going on for 6,000 years… Well, when we talk about patriarchal structure, we have forgotten what is the true role, the sacred role of women
and the true and sacred role of men. We have forgotten what not a consumer but a creative and constructive society is. We have forgotten what a creative and constructive society and its basic values are. And when a person understands what it means to be a Human, everything happens fractally, as everywhere else. Tatiana Peuvrel: Therefore, as soon as the Knowledge enters the world and enters every person who… so our duty is … So all problems will fall off like a husk, like something unnecessary, because every person, all around, will not let in any… When you understand the potential hazards of these consequences not only in your life, but also in the life of your surroundings and the life of your society, after all, if not to say the whole society, and what this means, you just will not be able, it will be impossible to step over your conscience. Because it will be the paramount… Myroslav Gret: Potential hazards you say? Just look out of the window… Olga Pogorelko: Yes, you can see that. Bogdan Novytskyi: Nowadays there are a lot of people who can see and understand this. Tatiana Peuvrel: Yes, I think it is understood by everyone. Bogdan Novytskyi: And what does consciousness tell everyone? “What can you do alone?” (again a few seconds everyone talks together) And here’s a moment that’s very important: we are capable of everything. We really can do everything now. Olga Pogorelko: And we have the right to live a life worthy of humans. Guys, we have now forgotten (we are switching subjects in our conversations) that a person is a Spirit, an immaterial being. And this is the foundation. Otherwise, we will fight for food. Igor Naumets: Well, look at the climatic changes that are happening in the world now. We see them in the newswire, in fact, they don’t go off the TV screens: floods, earthquakes, fires. Scientists already say that in the near future vast areas of land will be unsuitable for life. I’m not talking about the possibility of some large-scale volcanic changes. But when a territory becomes unsuitable for living, then people start looking for a territory where they can live. And now, for example, this is the Middle East, Africa – scientists say that it will happen in the next 50 years, but I think it will be much sooner, judging by the increasing rate of climate change. The temperature may already be as high as 70°C, so it will be impossible to live there. There are hundreds of millions of people who could become climate refugees. Is our society ready to accept them now? If we look, there is an earthquake in Indonesia, there are floods and fires, the taiga is on fire. And in general, in the society, who cares about this? The society is indifferent, while only the relatives or close friends empathize. It has become indifferent. And look, as they say now, that everything is ready for a new large-scale financial crisis. Many economists are already saying that in the next 2 years, or even in 2020, there may be an economic crisis, which humanity has not faced, in the last 200 years, or maybe even not at all yet. Myroslav Gret: And why is this so? We do understand that every economic crisis is caused by a geopolitical situation and is manipulated by those who have access to the knowledge about the climate — after all, this means redistribution of territories. And we understand that. Natalia Zinovchuk: And these crises are created artificially. Myroslav Gret: Now, they will create them artificially just to make people forget about the climate and the need to unite. Igor Naumets: The fact is that we are already living in this artificial system. Myroslav Gret: Unfortunately, yes,
the answer is obvious. Igor Naumets: And the system is very vulnerable, it is very easy to create this crisis now. It’s enough, let’s say, to stop the circulation of money through banks in any country — and that’s it, an avalanche-like chain will be launched. Myroslav Gret: We are on the verge of not only climatic, economic, and military crisis, but also we see…. Igor Naumets: There are two ways out of this situation: either a large-scale economic crisis (I’m not even talking about the climate, which is, let’s say, much, much worse), or a war. It appears as if we have nothing to choose from. The most interesting fact is that “the crisis” that everyone is talking about, in Greek means “the trial”. Trial means suffering. Does humankind really have to suffer in order to get cleansed? But why? When having united, we can simply vote in a referendum. It’s easy for everyone to do it at the same time. If everyone watching this programme agrees, he can tell about this his neighbors, spouse, children, friends, and acquaintances. And if they agree, if they support that something in society needs to be changed, then the measures we have proposed will be efficient. Let’s all unite. And let’s hold a referendum and vote all over the world for these changes, for a creative and constructive society! Olga Pogorelko: Do you mean May 9, 2020? Igor Naumets: Yes, that one which is scheduled for next year. This year’s event, which was held on May 11 and the one announced for May 9, 2020, are parts of a large-scale event called “Society. The Last Chance” which is held all around the world. Please join in, or at least participate in this format, give your opinion and vote. Vote for your future. Olga Pogorelko: Today we have voiced our ideas, our inspiration. And the main thing is that we’ve voiced the simplicity of the way out, that we just need to wake up, to understand that all the material possessions do not belong to us. You want and have the right to live like a true Human being. The points that have already been voiced are very simple: cancellation of debts, fixed wages. Our meeting is already a result of actions being taken by people from all over the world. We are not pioneers. It’s great that the preparation for May 9 is gaining momentum. We need to prepare, we must not just gather but… Natalia Zinovchuk: It would be good if by May 9th we already had this model of a creative and constructive society as a clear picture, which is not just an image, but, let’s say, if everybody was already just imbued with what it is, and with the understanding that this really exists and that it’s possible. And in fact, it’s not that difficult. Bogdan Novytskyi: You just need to share information with all people. If all people just start discussing it, everything will change very quickly. Oksana Kushch: Because every person knows how to live. Natalia Zinovchuk: How to live truly, how to live happily. Oksana Kushch: How to live happily, joyfully and peacefully. Tatiana Peuvrel: And we can clarify the situation only by communicating with each other, only by talking and understanding, deeply understanding what exactly this goodness is. Myroslav Gret: This discussion should be continued in different formats. That’s why we should have different discussions for each question. Because society should have an understanding of the realities we live in as well as of the ways out. I think that bi-weekly discussions is what we need to adhere to, because time… Olga Pogorelko: Every 2 weeks
until May 9, 2020, you mean. On August 31, it is possible to raise the topic
“Limitation of capital”, because it is still the basic moment for the transition. Oksana Kush: This is the foundation
of consumer society. Bogdan Novytskyi: The linchpin, which, if taken out, will simply lead to the disintegration of the system. Natalia Zinovchuk: It will just collapse, yes. Myroslav Gret: And here you have to understand that these should be done in different countries. Talk to all kinds of experts… Bogdan Novytskyi: And invite them to participate. Myroslav Gret: And invite all people. Igor Naumets: We should not stay silent but inform as many people as possible. Myroslav Gret: Don’t stay silent, but speak up. Tatiana Peuvrel: Everyone can express their opinion, even if it’s different. We invite absolutely all types of experts. Bogdan Novytskyi: In order somehow to do this… Tatiana Peuvrel: To do this, we need specialists. Oksana Kushch: Financial experts, economists. Natalia Zinovchuk: Right, financial analysts. Those who work in a bank. Olga Pogorelko: International lawyers. Tatyana Peuvrel: In the format of this game, of course, we invite absolutely anyone who cares. Olga Pogorelko: Let’s call it “Society. The Last Chance”. Bogdan Novytskyi: That’s what it is. Olga Pogorelko: Dear friends, we invite everyone to take part in the “Game of Professionals. Society. The Last Chance.” The first game will take place on August 31. It will be dedicated to the topic “Limitation of capital”. It will take place at 15:00 Kyiv time or 12:00 GMT. Please send your letters with suggestions to us at [email protected] If you would like to participate as a listener, connect to our youtube channel. We invite everyone to create this society together!

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